Discussion:
Message for animaux
(too old to reply)
COL. BILL KILGORE
2004-01-13 22:06:00 UTC
Permalink
How about dem Packers, Mrs. G? What a bunch of losers. HA!
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-13 23:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by COL. BILL KILGORE
How about dem Packers, Mrs. G? What a bunch of losers. HA!
Actually, the saddest part, to me, is that people actually put fake
cheese on their heads and then expect to be representative of the State
of Wisconsin.

The second exasperation is that school children are taken to field trips
to Packer's stadium (our tax dollars at work), and the young children swoon.

There are far better things in life to set as examples for children, for
our State, and for our country to worship and idolize. For
Pennsylvania, too.

Dianne
Roberta
2004-01-14 00:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Oh, come on, Dianne. Lambeau is a GB icon. It defines that town, right or
wrong. It's not like Green Bay has that much else to offer. The only
reason I go back is to visit the people I grew up with who still live there.

I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)

Roberta
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by COL. BILL KILGORE
How about dem Packers, Mrs. G? What a bunch of losers. HA!
Actually, the saddest part, to me, is that people actually put fake
cheese on their heads and then expect to be representative of the State
of Wisconsin.
The second exasperation is that school children are taken to field trips
to Packer's stadium (our tax dollars at work), and the young children swoon.
There are far better things in life to set as examples for children, for
our State, and for our country to worship and idolize. For
Pennsylvania, too.
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-14 13:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?

Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.

If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.

Dianne
Ellice
2004-01-14 15:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
It's not different - it's just more visible. What do you think about the
Black Sox scandal - nearly 100 years ago. Or when Roger Maris was about to
break the home run record 40 years ago - people were dedicated and
completely involved in following their teams. As a matter of interesting
sociology, it seems that during times of economic woe, political upheaval -
the following of professional sports takes an upturn. People become more
involved, obsessive. I don't know why, but it's something that has been
noted over the last century - maybe it's the distraction from things which
they feel they can't control.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
So, in a place where the football team, a little town owning the team, the
stadium is something they feel is of premiere importance you're the one who
doesn't. Are people painting epithets on your fence, toilet-papering your
yard, throwing stones? Or are they just shaking their heads because they
don't get why you don't care? They probably think you're nuts because the
Packers are the biggest thing in Green Bay and a source of pride. Oh well. I
personally believe that Americans spend way too much money, on entertainment
and those who entertain us - actors and athletes. But, as a society
evidently the majority goes with it. And it's a skill to be a world class
athlete, or a great actor, so we have to deal with that. It's better than
worshipping gun-fighters in the 19th century, or early 20th.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
Sure, but even the ancient Greeks place high value on top athletes, the
Romans on gladiators, and these athletes had followings.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
So, don't wear a Cheesehead. You're just stuck. I don't think anyone really
thinks that everyone from Wisconsin wears foam cheese on their head. What
about the folks in Milwaukee with Beer Cans instead ;^) ?
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Y'know you're entitled to your opinion. But, if this is what people want,
and they're happy - it's their right. What right do you really have to say
that they're wrong? If you don't like the socio-economic-cultural
environment, then I'd say find a place that you will like. Have your spouse
do a job search, and move. There are many cities and towns across the
country that have museums, and little symphonies - find one you like. If
you're looking for higher education levels on the average - then you have to
move either to a University town - where it's disparate - or a metro area
that doesn't have an industrial basis - where the basis is now white collar
work - like Silicon Valley, or the MD/DC/VA area to name 2. Or even in the
city of Pittsburgh - since the steel mills shut, the town has shifted it's
economic base - but they're crazy for their teams in Pgh, and that would bug
you. I don't think you'd like it here - as my guess would be you'd think
people are tooo competitive. Just a hunch.

When I first lived in Pgh, I was really struck by the steel-worker
situation. But then, with some time and observation I came to some odd
thoughts. This was an entire class of hard working folks who were well paid,
and had a culture of the kids staying in that field - not getting more
education, moving out, changing their life - instead it was work hard during
the week, have a big-screen tv, go to Steelers games, and drink beer - that
was what the money was for - not moving to nicer houses, etc. Some were able
to buy out their company, and come back to work for $19/hr anticipating
getting more - while others refused to do that (from about $28-35/hr) and
instead ended up in a world of hurt and job retraining to $8/hr jobs. They
weren't prepared to do anything else, and hadn't wanted most of the kids to
do anything else. I had to think hard about this - because part of me felt
this was a stupid way to live - making $50K a year in the 80s, and living in
bedroom communities of little houses - but you'd see shiny trucks or
Camaros, and all those big-screen tvs thru the windows - and very full
little bars. Finally, for me, I decided what right do I have to say their
choice of life-style is wrong? If people don't want to "better" themselves,
aren't interested in art, or music - and are wanting to just watch their
football team, wear stupid things on their heads, and drink a lot of beer in
their off time - so be it. Maybe they're the smart ones - as they're less
stressed.

I'm sure that there are people who think that spending time doing needlework
is crazier than putting a foam cheese wedge on your head. Just something to
think about.

Ellice
Brenda Lewis
2004-01-14 16:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Dianne, if your taxes are supporting the school, why don't you check
with them to see *why* they thought this was an appropriate field trip?
Perhaps a corporate partner-in-education funded the trip as a reward
for improved test scores or some other academic achievement. They
could also be learning about diversity since a pro football team usually
has a broad cross-section of races/ethnicities and religions. OK, no
great gender diversity...

Personally, I think students should be taken out and taught the ugly
side to sports and entertainment careers. They really need to talk to
the men and women who were so talented they were supposed to set the
world on fire and then they fizzled immediately, had a career-ending
injury, public opinion changed and someone else was hotter, they
couldn't take the stress, drugs, booze, relationships (euphemism here),
etc. Maybe a fallen idol can get through to them that the achievement
of an education is something no one can take away from them. Since
schools are patting students on the back and saying whatever they do is
just fine, someone has to shoot them down with the truth--either about
how great they aren't or how hard it is to make it even if you are good
and you better have a net below you when you fall. Simon Cowell can't
be there for everyone.

Another possible plus would be if such a trip got students more
interested in physical activity (in a healthy, non-steroidal way). This
is also the only way some children will ever get to see such a place
since their parents can't afford to take them or don't consider sports
events something to attend. I'm sure some of them were wide-eyed
because they have never seen the inside of such a big place and can't
imagine that so many people would be there at once. A football game is
a cultural event just as much as a ballet or a rock concert. I bet the
students from well-to-do fan families (who regularly attend games) had a
different perspective.
--
Brenda Lewis ***@netscape.net
WIP: "Pink Baby" photo frame, Candamar
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-14 19:20:52 UTC
Permalink
[snip] As a matter of interesting
sociology, it seems that during times of economic woe, political upheaval -
the following of professional sports takes an upturn. People become more
involved, obsessive. I don't know why, but it's something that has been
noted over the last century - maybe it's the distraction from things which
they feel they can't control.
I'd like to see some statistics that show this - over the course of
history. Along those lines, the course of history has shown us some
rather nasty adherences to idolatry (men thrown in the lions den while
the crowd cheers; or, public hangings and public beheadings). Just
because a society does it - and it's a majority - doesn't make it
sensible or furthering the culture of a society.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
So, in a place where the football team, a little town owning the team, the
stadium is something they feel is of premiere importance you're the one who
doesn't. Are people painting epithets on your fence,
As a matter of fact: yes, people have torn up my gardens, toilet
papered my yard, paint-balled my house.
They probably think you're nuts because the
Packers are the biggest thing in Green Bay and a source of pride.
Purchasing baby blankets in packer green with gold helmets, packer
jackets for any age, packer pajamas . . . come on. This isn't
enthusiasm, it's a fetish, and it's not healthy. Pride is one thing. I
used to cheer the Bears, but I didn't have anything in the house (like
kitchen curtains) that had the Bears logo all over it. Nor glasses in
my cupboard.

Until recently, if you went in the local JC Penney store, 2/3's of it
were Packer-related merchandise. That's since changed, thank the gods.
Oh well. I
personally believe that Americans spend way too much money, on entertainment
and those who entertain us - actors and athletes. But, as a society
evidently the majority goes with it.
But that doesn't make the majority correct in their behavior. In fact,
in my opinion, it says something very negative about us.
And it's a skill to be a world class
athlete, or a great actor, so we have to deal with that. It's better than
worshipping gun-fighters in the 19th century, or early 20th.
I don't know of anyone who worshipped gunfighters. Some people did get
some glee out of the Bonnie & Clyde escapades, but that had to do with
the Depression and what many considered unfair banking at that time.
Sure, but even the ancient Greeks place high value on top athletes, the
Romans on gladiators, and these athletes had followings.
As I said: there's a difference between a fan and a fetish.

I stated: >>State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In
fact, Wisconsin
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
To which Ellice replied: So, don't wear a Cheesehead. You're just stuck.

Stuck on what? Sanity? Obviously, from my above paragraph, there's
plenty more that think the moniker of "cheesehead" does nothing to
promote the value of the State.
don't think anyone really
thinks that everyone from Wisconsin wears foam cheese on their head. What
about the folks in Milwaukee with Beer Cans instead ;^) ?
You might be surprised. Then again, of course not. But that is a
phrase that has become our State's moniker: Cheesehead. That doesn't
exactly promote us positively.
Y'know you're entitled to your opinion. But, if this is what people want,
and they're happy - it's their right. What right do you really have to say
that they're wrong? >If you don't like the socio-economic-cultural
environment, then I'd say find a place that you will like. Have your spouse
do a job search, and move.
This is the same hue and cry, worded slightly differently: "If you
don't like America, leave." Surely you can come up with a better
argument. Have you looked at the labor market lately? The
socio-economic status of the U.S. as a whole?

Some people like to stand up and say, "This isn't helping, it's
hurting." Others don't have to listen, but that doesn't make the
statement "wrong".

Dianne
Cheryl Isaak
2004-01-14 16:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.

SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.

Cheryl
Caryn
2004-01-14 18:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.
SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
Cheryl
Lord knows WE pay for our kids various field trips!

Our school district doesn't even use school buses for trips, but charter buses.

And they go to places like Farms with corn mazes in the fall. Not really
educational, but they will also go to things like the Nat'l Archives and the
Kennedy Center.

I know that on a trip to the Nat'l Aquarium in Baltimore, a small side trip to
Camden Yards was part of the agenda. Didn't really bother me, not that I give
a flying hoot about the Orioles.

Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-14 19:27:24 UTC
Permalink
You may be right. These annual trips may be supported by parents group.
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.
SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
2004-01-14 19:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Dianne,
It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your direct concern.
Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a museum, historic site.

I've been wondering if a trip to see the inside workings of the local
"Arena" would be of interest. There's more there than a chunk of ice and
seats. You never know what might spark with a child.

ME - I'm still wondering why we want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to
the elementary school on grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who
will have very little to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for
money for extra supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as
necessary as the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music
teacher.

Cheryl
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
You may be right. These annual trips may be supported by parents group.
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.
SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
Cheryl
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-15 00:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your
direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
museum, historic site.<<

Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
of children in my community. Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.

It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
vision of the world. Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.

Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.

I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."

But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.

Dianne
Dianne,
It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your direct concern.
Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a museum, historic site.
I've been wondering if a trip to see the inside workings of the local
"Arena" would be of interest. There's more there than a chunk of ice and
seats. You never know what might spark with a child.
ME - I'm still wondering why we want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to
the elementary school on grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who
will have very little to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for
money for extra supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as
necessary as the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music
teacher.
Cheryl
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
You may be right. These annual trips may be supported by parents group.
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.
SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
Cheryl
KDLark
2004-01-15 00:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.
We have "read ins" at elementary schools where the kids bring pillows and their
stuffed toys and get to lounge on the floor reading and being read to. Maybe
this is what the "lock downs" are?

Katrina L.
Dianne Lewandowski
2004-01-15 16:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Not according the answers I get from the kids I ask. They're just
"pajama parties". something "fun".
Dianne
Post by KDLark
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.
We have "read ins" at elementary schools where the kids bring pillows and their
stuffed toys and get to lounge on the floor reading and being read to. Maybe
this is what the "lock downs" are?
Katrina L.
Jenn Liace
2004-01-15 03:22:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:20 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."
But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.
I took Cheryl's comment about the artist in residence as being posted
tongue-in-cheek, espcially with the part about the paper and chalk
tossed in. You're right, if the parents are paying for basic supplies
so that the school can pay for a trip to Lambeau, I'd pass on the
trip. But I owuldn't be surprised to find out that there's a
corporation paying for that trip - maybe even the Packers themselves.


Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
Jenn Liace
2004-01-15 03:24:12 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:20 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.
One of our prior schools had this. It's essentially an overnight
social. No purpose other than to have fun with their friends (and
possibly to give some parents who aren't chaperoning for whatever
reason a night without one of their rugrats underfoot.) My daughter
didn't go that year, though, she was only in first grade and I didn't
think she was ready for it yet.


Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
Cheryl Isaak
2004-01-15 18:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Dianne,
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your
direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
museum, historic site.<<
Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
of children in my community.
I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
don't know of literacy program that has enough help.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.
What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?

Now, a bus for a day here is $300, holds 55 elementary school students or 40
middle and high school students and the chaperones. Average grade size is
160 at the elementary level, 450 at the older levels. So, a minimum of $900
for transportation alone.

And entrance fees, at $2.00 to $10 per student..... Adds up quick doesn't
it.

Field trips are an expensive proposition. I work on a committee that brings
in speakers that complement the curriculum, meteorologist, wildlife, Native
American, colonial history, the fire department, local dentists,
Egyptologists, dinosaurs. On average, the cost is $500 per speaker. Some
are much higher, some are free. On the whole, much more cost effective and
no one misses out, which can and does happen.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
vision of the world.
So did I on all accounts. But why the Wonder Bread factory instead of the
local bakery.'Cause WB was paying for some of it.

But re-read the above listing of costs to take a "class" to anyplace. And
what was the total cost to the parents for these trips - tax dollars didn't
pay all of it. Parents had to chip in 30 years ago when I was at that age.
Don¹t ask what I've paid for DS's school excursions so far this year - it is
over $300 already.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.
Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
plant, all the behind the scenes management. I recently got a chance to
step behind the scenes locally and was impressed at the breadth of skills
needed to keep it running smoothly. How to make the ice is a good intro to
practical applications of science. How to balance the schedule the ice
hockey team one night and hosting a concert the next with the very different
needs of the athletes and the performers. Or how about security issues.
Managing the "pro shop" - a wide range of professions and jobs are
represented in that one trip behind the scenes.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school (and still don't understand the
attraction) and the only plays I've been to were strictly drama club
affairs. But I'd read plays from Aristophanes to Eugene Iounesco and read a
fair number of librettos. And the only museums I went to as a child were of
the road side attraction variety or the science museum. The average parent
probably still doesn't want the little darlings around the nudes at the
Museum of Fine Arts and the average teen will be to busy chortling to learn
anything. (BTW those are the sentiments voiced by local, college educated
parents.) Frankly - I don't think the most "culture" things are grasped by
students under the age of 15 or 16, they aren't ready yet beyond the
simplest of ballets or classical music. Some maturity is required to look at
or understand a nude beyond the titillation factor and the same goes for Van
Gogh. You can look and see the "pretty" but that's all. If you just want to
expose the kids - a slide or book plate is plenty.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."
I happen to think it a waste of time and money - if there is no interaction
with the STUDENTS, why are we doing it? The intended result could be done
much more cost effectively by hiring a landscape designer locally.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here.
Easy - "people" want computers and the fancy building and big marching bands
and the winning sports teams - the status symbols. And the teachers union
wants it agenda. And the layers of administration all get their cut of the
action. So I can understand how the paper and chalk get cut out of the
budget.
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.
But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
box.

Cheryl
Karen C - California
2004-01-15 20:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school
Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.

PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.

Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).

Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.
--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
Cheryl Isaak
2004-01-15 20:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Cheryl Isaak
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school
Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.
You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
things over and over.
Post by Karen C - California
PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.
Here you do - no reception with out the huge antennae.
Post by Karen C - California
Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).
Lucky - I didn't mind dropping cable, nothing like that on the local access.
But there was the Wicca group that were the subject of letters to the editor
at the local papers. (those were pretty funny!)
Post by Karen C - California
Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.
Amen to that. Last Olde Home Days (town pride type thing) we got the local
head bangers/heavy metal bands. Ouch! But the next town over does get some
decent stuff - choral groups, barbershop etc...

But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
they are in such pain. LOL

Cheryl

Roberta
2004-01-14 21:45:25 UTC
Permalink
I haven't lived in WI for more than 10 years, so I'm a little removed. My
friends and my family's friends are all football fans, but not obsessed.

Roberta
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun!
But
Post by Dianne Lewandowski
Post by Roberta
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
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