Discussion:
OT - Pet Dreams?
(too old to reply)
ellice
2007-01-12 15:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.

The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.

Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).

Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.

Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.

Strange. Just thought I'd share.

ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-12 16:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Strange? That is down right freaky! I've heard whimpers, growls and moans,
but never a howl.


C
ellice
2007-01-12 16:25:05 UTC
Permalink
*lil snip*
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Strange? That is down right freaky! I've heard whimpers, growls and moans,
but never a howl.
C
Yup - that was my take on it. Especially as he really, honestly was asleep.
Who knows what's going on in those little doggie brains.

ellice
Dr. Brat
2007-01-12 19:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Strange? That is down right freaky! I've heard whimpers, growls and moans,
but never a howl.
Yup - that was my take on it. Especially as he really, honestly was asleep.
Who knows what's going on in those little doggie brains.
Both my ancient Cocker and one of my current Tervuren have been known to
howl in their sleep. The first time Satin did it, I thought the world
was coming to an end and rushed to save him. Got a dirty look for
waking him for my efforts. LOL! Harry does it sometimes, too, but I no
longer bother to wake him and the howling doesn't seem to wake him.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
ellice
2007-01-13 00:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Strange? That is down right freaky! I've heard whimpers, growls and moans,
but never a howl.
Yup - that was my take on it. Especially as he really, honestly was asleep.
Who knows what's going on in those little doggie brains.
Both my ancient Cocker and one of my current Tervuren have been known to
howl in their sleep. The first time Satin did it, I thought the world
was coming to an end and rushed to save him. Got a dirty look for
waking him for my efforts. LOL! Harry does it sometimes, too, but I no
longer bother to wake him and the howling doesn't seem to wake him.
Elizabeth
Thanks - now I feel better. Puckster just looks so cute when he's lying on
his side, big furry feet moving as if he's trotting along, with the little
whuffly noises coming. But the howling really threw me. When he did it in
tune with the siren the one time, we were so thrilled - wanted to get him to
do it more - but no such luck!

I definitely don't wake him - it's bad enough waking him to move him down
the bed - if he's really asleep he's quite grumbly about it.

ellice
Jere Williams
2007-01-12 16:33:47 UTC
Permalink
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.

We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
--
Jere
http://community.webshots.com/user/Jere224422
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-12 16:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
ellice
2007-01-13 00:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.

Ellice - r,d, & h
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-13 00:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.

C
Dr. Brat
2007-01-13 00:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
Bawhahhahahahahahaha!

Oh my, Momma, yer killing me!

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-14 01:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
Bawhahhahahahahahaha!
Oh my, Momma, yer killing me!
Elizabeth
Both have been told that if they want us to pay of hockey and/or college,
there will be no dating. Their eyes should only be on the future. Besides,
for now, the girls aren't too interested because DS is "weird" and DD is too
much of a tomboy for the boys.

C
ellice
2007-01-15 17:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
Bawhahhahahahahahaha!
Oh my, Momma, yer killing me!
Elizabeth
Both have been told that if they want us to pay of hockey and/or college,
there will be no dating. Their eyes should only be on the future. Besides,
for now, the girls aren't too interested because DS is "weird" and DD is too
much of a tomboy for the boys.
C
I've got to say - you're definitely out of your mind - and starting to sound
a little scarey ;^)

DD is a bit young for dating - you should have at least another 5 years for
the group dating to happen. Most of the hockey kids we know - and there are
lots - seem to do a lot of group dating in high school. The god-son didn't
really have a girlfriend until late junior year, and the god daughter who is
a senior, and very pretty, but very, very, brainy (goes to the regional
Science & Tech Hi School for the "gifted") goes out a lot with her gal pals,
and mixed groups. But those kids have about as much work to do as I did in
grad school (well, almost).

It would seem to me that telling them they can't date will only make them
rebellious - but what do I know. I know you're not like the commercials
planning your future retirement based on the kids NHL careers?

DH managed to date, play hockey, go to an Ivy (Cornell) and play hockey
there - and have at least a summer job, and IIRC a part-time school year job
(in high school - when he played both as a starter Varsity Football, and
Hockey - he did have to give up soccer as a freshman - too much overlap).

I'd be more worried about excessive partying rather than the dating thing.
Coaching - we've always tried to make sure the kids know - be smart - NO
Partying the night before a game. Period. And if they show the results of
such stupidity - there's a nice comfy spot on the bench.

ellice
Susan Hartman
2007-01-15 17:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there
isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one
socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems
there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend."
(which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier
generations remember it.)

sue
--
--
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
http://www.dirtylinen.com
ellice
2007-01-15 18:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Hartman
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there
isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one
socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems
there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend."
(which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier
generations remember it.)
sue
Yup - that's what I've observed with the godchildren. And honestly, the
godson seemed to be the main one with a "girlfriend" in his group. So we
see them with some of his guys a lot. He was a doing sports and studying
guy until the end of 11th grade. Then got a gorgeous, nice, girlfriend -
then they broke up in mid-senior year. He was fine - thought it was good to
be "free" to spend time with his friends, etc . Went off to college - and a
few months in - the ex is trying to hook back up but he said no. Good kid -
very nice, very cute.

ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-16 11:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Hartman
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there
isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one
socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems
there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend."
(which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier
generations remember it.)
sue
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.

C
lucretia borgia
2007-01-16 12:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Cheryl Isaak <***@comcast.net>,in
rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.
C
Well that is definitely where parents come in, schools too, absolutely
frank discussion with ones children, full details about birth control
and the possible hazards of STD's, also the often traumatic feelings
of rejection etc. that come from brief relationships.

Telling children "Don't do it, abstention is best" is a crock because
we all know they will do it. The only thing you can do is arm them
for the fray then if they don't do it, no harm done, but if they do,
no harm done.

If ever there is a subject between parent and child that needs
frankness, sex is it. Telling them to abstain will not work (as
someone else pointed out very eloquently) leads them to start
concealing big events in their lives from you and is the worst
possible way to go.
Brenda Lewis
2007-01-16 15:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by lucretia borgia
and entertained us with
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.
C
Well that is definitely where parents come in, schools too, absolutely
frank discussion with ones children, full details about birth control
and the possible hazards of STD's, also the often traumatic feelings
of rejection etc. that come from brief relationships.
Telling children "Don't do it, abstention is best" is a crock because
we all know they will do it. The only thing you can do is arm them
for the fray then if they don't do it, no harm done, but if they do,
no harm done.
If ever there is a subject between parent and child that needs
frankness, sex is it. Telling them to abstain will not work (as
someone else pointed out very eloquently) leads them to start
concealing big events in their lives from you and is the worst
possible way to go.
There are also those kids who don't realize that STDs can be spread even
if they don't "go all the way" because the abstention folks don't bother
teaching that.
--
Brenda
Help Project Gutenberg--become a Distributed Proofreader
http://www.pgdp.net/
lucretia borgia
2007-01-16 17:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Brenda Lewis <***@netscape.net>,in
rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by Brenda Lewis
Post by lucretia borgia
and entertained us with
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.
C
Well that is definitely where parents come in, schools too, absolutely
frank discussion with ones children, full details about birth control
and the possible hazards of STD's, also the often traumatic feelings
of rejection etc. that come from brief relationships.
Telling children "Don't do it, abstention is best" is a crock because
we all know they will do it. The only thing you can do is arm them
for the fray then if they don't do it, no harm done, but if they do,
no harm done.
If ever there is a subject between parent and child that needs
frankness, sex is it. Telling them to abstain will not work (as
someone else pointed out very eloquently) leads them to start
concealing big events in their lives from you and is the worst
possible way to go.
There are also those kids who don't realize that STDs can be spread even
if they don't "go all the way" because the abstention folks don't bother
teaching that.
Too true and Clamydia (sp?) has long term disadvantages such as female
sterility which is often incurred because the woman can have little to
no particular symptoms. Clamydia stats amongst young women today
were very scary the last time I saw some.
ellice
2007-01-16 14:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Susan Hartman
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there
isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one
socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems
there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend."
(which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier
generations remember it.)
sue
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.
C
Jeez - you either must live in a horrid area, or have really uneducated
young teens. Thought the latest statistics are showing that there is a
decrease in such overall, and that the higher decrease is in the younger -
teen age - groups. Being attributed to more sex education, etc. There was
a report out from maybe NIH or H&HS a few weeks back about this.

Education - y'know - safe sex, the risks, etc. All the young adults I've
known in the last several years seem pretty aware, and not all to be
screwing around - especially with the group things. It seems the groups are
more social groups, though you sort of see "hook-ups" as in some couples
structure within the group.

Has New Hampshire been struck by the worst problems of the inner city - or
are you just becoming a really over-worried, pessimistic mom? I hope
neither.

FWIW - we know young adults who were undoubtedly having some kind of close
physical (sex) relationship when seniors in high-school, and others who are
clearly not at all. When the godson was spending a lot of time in his
basement lair with the girlfriend - I asked his mom if they'd had the safe
sex, etc talk. She was, being exceptionally liberal, concerned about
invading his privacy, and sure that at 17+ he was pretty aware. His dad had
the to be sure talk. As evidently the girlfriend's parents had also.

Good to be vigilant - but you don't really want to turn your children into
scared of everything uneducated and socially maladept people, do you?

ellice
T Michelle Jensen
2007-01-16 19:15:27 UTC
Permalink
OK, here goes - ABSTINENCE is BEST, but does NOT mean people shouldn't be
educated about sexuality, birth control, STD's, etc. I had a friend in high
school who's mother told her once she started menstruating that 'kissing
makes you pregnant.' My cousin kissed her on the cheek one day, and she
started her period that same day & ran away, scared she was pregnant!!!
Many many people choose to wait until they are married or committed before
having sexual relations of any sort. Not all kids will 'do it anyway.'
Parents need to teach their kids their values as well as facts about our
health and our bodies.

Cheryl, I'm sorry you're taking such heat on your comments about your kids
dating & such. You have every right to raise your kids how you feel best
for them. I don't necessarily agree with all you have said about them not
dating, but I do agree that encouraging them to take their time and know
both themselves and the person they are considering is wise. Best wishes

--cocoa
Post by ellice
On 1/15/07 12:35 PM, in article
Post by Susan Hartman
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there
isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one
socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems
there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend."
(which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier
generations remember it.)
sue
Yes - and the huge number of kids that are now spreading all sorts of STD's.
C
Jeez - you either must live in a horrid area, or have really uneducated
young teens. Thought the latest statistics are showing that there is a
decrease in such overall, and that the higher decrease is in the younger -
teen age - groups. Being attributed to more sex education, etc. There was
a report out from maybe NIH or H&HS a few weeks back about this.
Education - y'know - safe sex, the risks, etc. All the young adults I've
known in the last several years seem pretty aware, and not all to be
screwing around - especially with the group things. It seems the groups are
more social groups, though you sort of see "hook-ups" as in some couples
structure within the group.
Has New Hampshire been struck by the worst problems of the inner city - or
are you just becoming a really over-worried, pessimistic mom? I hope
neither.
FWIW - we know young adults who were undoubtedly having some kind of close
physical (sex) relationship when seniors in high-school, and others who are
clearly not at all. When the godson was spending a lot of time in his
basement lair with the girlfriend - I asked his mom if they'd had the safe
sex, etc talk. She was, being exceptionally liberal, concerned about
invading his privacy, and sure that at 17+ he was pretty aware. His dad had
the to be sure talk. As evidently the girlfriend's parents had also.
Good to be vigilant - but you don't really want to turn your children into
scared of everything uneducated and socially maladept people, do you?
ellice
Karen C - California
2007-01-16 20:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Michelle Jensen
OK, here goes - ABSTINENCE is BEST, but does NOT mean people
shouldn't be educated about sexuality, birth control, STD's, etc. I
had a friend in high school who's mother told her once she started
menstruating that 'kissing makes you pregnant.'
My college roommate was just horrified when our friend Joe got up from
my chair and I sat down without spraying it with Lysol or washing it or
something. She was convinced that I was going to get pregnant from
sitting in the chair Joe just sat in.

Then another person came in, I offered the guest my chair, and went to
sit on the edge of the bed next to Joe. Again, roomie was convinced
that sitting fully-clothed on the bed next to a fully-clothed man was
enough to get me pregnant.

Apparently, as intelligent and educated as her parents were, they gave
her such a vague Birds & Bees speech that she was convinced just being
near a man was enough. A few days later, she was presented with a copy
of "Our Bodies, Ourselves", and we'd rustled up every birth control
device in the dorm as visual aids to our educational lecture. (Yes,
Mom, even at a religious college, we had a wide variety of birth control
devices. And the head of the Religion department made abortion loans,
having learned that even mandatory chapel attendance and Religion
classes was not enough to achieve 100% compliance with abstinence.)

TTBOMK, she did not go on a single date while she was in college,
because even though we'd explained that dating/kissing/sitting are not
enough to provoke pregnancy, she wasn't quite sure we were right.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf


WIP: housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
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ellice
2007-01-16 22:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by T Michelle Jensen
OK, here goes - ABSTINENCE is BEST, but does NOT mean people
shouldn't be educated about sexuality, birth control, STD's, etc. I
had a friend in high school who's mother told her once she started
menstruating that 'kissing makes you pregnant.'
My college roommate was just horrified when our friend Joe got up from
my chair and I sat down without spraying it with Lysol or washing it or
something. She was convinced that I was going to get pregnant from
sitting in the chair Joe just sat in.
Then another person came in, I offered the guest my chair, and went to
sit on the edge of the bed next to Joe. Again, roomie was convinced
that sitting fully-clothed on the bed next to a fully-clothed man was
enough to get me pregnant.
Wow - does this bring back memories. One year, a good friend and I shared a
rental townhouse with someone we'd known from jr hi, high school. She was a
nice girl - spent way, way too much time in the shower, primping, etc. Not
very pretty - but a nice girl. From a rather pampered background - not a lot
of money - we called her the Jewban Princess - her family were Cuban Jews
that had fled in the 60s. Anyhow - her older brother was very cool, smart,
all things the roomies like in the older brother (who we'd also known
forever). Said roomie, D, had a terrible crush on one of his pals, and
evidently assumed she was going to have an arranged something with him (not
the case in his eyes). Anyhow - evidently she was quite inexperienced, and
would joke that she was living a bit vicariously through B, our other roomie
(who was a very smart girl, but partied a lot - broadcast journalism major).
I was in the middle somewhere. So, one day - D finally has a date with a
cute, normal, guy that we know. They go out (after her 3 hour shower and
prep). When they came in they went up to her room (she had a single, B&I
shared the master). No big deal. In the morning, B, I, the guys from next
door are hanging around the dining room - coffee and bagels and newspapers.
About 10:30 am - down the stairs come the cute guy, and D. D is still
completely dressed in her slacks, dressy blouse, tucked in and belted, still
has her knee-highs on under the slacks. Cute guy leaves. D goes back
upstairs. Comes back a little while later, and is concerned - could she be
pregnant - because they were necking, and well, she's not sure what finally
happened - with him. But - she had her clothes on the whole time, and she
was "in the bed" while he was over the blanket, under the bedspread - but
she did hear him moan... You get the picture. We didn't know whether to
laugh or cry. This girl was older than us, and at that time 20 oe 21. So,
we assured her that there was no way - they'd had no bodily contact except
for spit swapping - and that even "super sperm" weren't getting through all
those barriers. We gathered that he had taken off his outer shirt at least.
Then we asked her how come she didn't at least take off the knee-highs -
that wouldn't make her a floozy. Let alone why not change into something
more comfortable.
Post by Karen C - California
Apparently, as intelligent and educated as her parents were, they gave
her such a vague Birds & Bees speech that she was convinced just being
near a man was enough. A few days later, she was presented with a copy
of "Our Bodies, Ourselves", and we'd rustled up every birth control
device in the dorm as visual aids to our educational lecture. (Yes,
Mom, even at a religious college, we had a wide variety of birth control
devices. And the head of the Religion department made abortion loans,
having learned that even mandatory chapel attendance and Religion
classes was not enough to achieve 100% compliance with abstinence.)
TTBOMK, she did not go on a single date while she was in college,
because even though we'd explained that dating/kissing/sitting are not
enough to provoke pregnancy, she wasn't quite sure we were right.
Sounds similar - although we think that D did get some more dates. We felt
so badly for her - she seriously thought this friend of her brothers was
going to be her prince charming - and he was so not interested. The brother
and pal weren't dummies (both in the engineering school) but seemed to have
more normal social lives.

Wow - I haven't thought about her in quite a while.

ellice
Dr. Brat
2007-01-16 21:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Michelle Jensen
Cheryl, I'm sorry you're taking such heat on your comments about your kids
dating & such. You have every right to raise your kids how you feel best
for them. I don't necessarily agree with all you have said about them not
dating, but I do agree that encouraging them to take their time and know
both themselves and the person they are considering is wise. Best wishes
I don't think Cheryl's taking "such heat" and I certainly don't think
anyone is encouraging her to encourage her kids to have sex in high
school. Dating is not the same as having sex and not all kids are
running around doing either or both. Among my students, some certainly
are sexually active, but I know plenty who make it clear that they are
not. By dating, I meant interacting on a social level with an intent to
get to know someone better, perhaps romantically.

Certainly Cheryl will do what she wants. I don't think anyone who knows
her doubts that! *grin* Ellice and Sheena and others are just putting
in our two cents worth because we can.

I do have one more thought on the subject however: when one says "don't
do x, or we won't pay for college," one had best be prepared for the
child in question to say "fine. No college, then." I can certainly
think of a moment when I wish I'd told my mother that, because she would
have backed down (on letting me live off campus with a female friend)
rather than see me drop out. But we grow too soon old rather than wise.
I should have stood up to my mom (who was prone to giving ultimatums
about anything she wanted us kids to do) about five years before I
actually did. But then I'd have a very different life and perhaps she
was right after all.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
ellice
2007-01-16 22:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by T Michelle Jensen
Cheryl, I'm sorry you're taking such heat on your comments about your kids
dating & such. You have every right to raise your kids how you feel best
for them. I don't necessarily agree with all you have said about them not
dating, but I do agree that encouraging them to take their time and know
both themselves and the person they are considering is wise. Best wishes
I don't think Cheryl's taking "such heat" and I certainly don't think
anyone is encouraging her to encourage her kids to have sex in high
school. Dating is not the same as having sex and not all kids are
running around doing either or both. Among my students, some certainly
are sexually active, but I know plenty who make it clear that they are
not. By dating, I meant interacting on a social level with an intent to
get to know someone better, perhaps romantically.
Certainly Cheryl will do what she wants. I don't think anyone who knows
her doubts that! *grin* Ellice and Sheena and others are just putting
in our two cents worth because we can.
Absolutely, and thanks.
Post by Dr. Brat
I do have one more thought on the subject however: when one says "don't
do x, or we won't pay for college," one had best be prepared for the
child in question to say "fine. No college, then." I can certainly
think of a moment when I wish I'd told my mother that, because she would
have backed down (on letting me live off campus with a female friend)
rather than see me drop out. But we grow too soon old rather than wise.
I should have stood up to my mom (who was prone to giving ultimatums
about anything she wanted us kids to do) about five years before I
actually did. But then I'd have a very different life and perhaps she
was right after all.
You are so right. My mom tried some ultimatums - or at least thought about
them - but she knew I would take the challenge - so thought better. The
biggest issue was when I was going off to university at 15. My DM suddenly
decided I should stay home - but the situation wasn't very viable. My DF
had said that if I would stay home for another year - then they'd let me
have a horse. That worked. I finally said okay to that - then they reneged
on the horse. So I said - nope, going away. Years later my DM (after I
dropped out of school after sophomore year) would announce that she should
have put her foot down, refused to pay, refused to let me go. But, as I
told her that wouldn't have mattered - they paid very little (I had an
academic scholarship) and honestly - if she had done that I would have gone
to a different school - more my choice than theirs - and still have been
away. I didn't regret the decision - could I have been smarter - sure - but
you learn from all these life lessons, and go on. But, I did always know
that when I was a teen - for some time my DM was a bit intimidated by me -
and my DF let me know it - as in telling me I was giving her a nervous
breakdown. Fortunately we grew past those times as I got older and more
forgiving or something like that.

ellice
lucretia borgia
2007-01-16 22:47:28 UTC
Permalink
"T Michelle Jensen" <***@earthlink.net>,in
rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by T Michelle Jensen
OK, here goes - ABSTINENCE is BEST, but does NOT mean people shouldn't be
educated about sexuality, birth control, STD's, etc. I had a friend in high
school who's mother told her once she started menstruating that 'kissing
makes you pregnant.' My cousin kissed her on the cheek one day, and she
started her period that same day & ran away, scared she was pregnant!!!
Many many people choose to wait until they are married or committed before
having sexual relations of any sort. Not all kids will 'do it anyway.'
Parents need to teach their kids their values as well as facts about our
health and our bodies.
Cheryl, I'm sorry you're taking such heat on your comments about your kids
dating & such. You have every right to raise your kids how you feel best
for them. I don't necessarily agree with all you have said about them not
dating, but I do agree that encouraging them to take their time and know
both themselves and the person they are considering is wise. Best wishes
--cocoa
Cheryl is taking 'heat' ?? I doubt it, most of the answers I have
seen have come from people she knows well who would never take a hit
at her personally.

It goes without saying that along with sex education, a concerned
mother like Cheryl, has worked in moral education through the years
with her children and in the end, all will be well. Friends were
suggesting to her not to be too adamant about dating, it can have a
reverse effect.

I still say though, that many children may not have sex and may stick
with the abstinence idea, but many more will have sex and they need to
be well protected, in every way. One only has to look at stats to
realize that.
Alison
2007-01-17 00:16:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:47:28 GMT, lucretia borgia
Post by lucretia borgia
Cheryl is taking 'heat' ?? I doubt it, most of the answers I have
seen have come from people she knows well who would never take a hit
at her personally.
It goes without saying that along with sex education, a concerned
mother like Cheryl, has worked in moral education through the years
with her children and in the end, all will be well. Friends were
suggesting to her not to be too adamant about dating, it can have a
reverse effect.
I still say though, that many children may not have sex and may stick
with the abstinence idea, but many more will have sex and they need to
be well protected, in every way. One only has to look at stats to
realize that.
I am childless but am going to chime in anyway. I think the most
important thing for Cheryl's DS to learn, more important than dating,
is how to be friends with girls. If DS can have girls as friends,
then whether or not he dates, he will be comfortable around them when
he does get around to dating and won't seem awkward. Ditto for DD -
boys can be friends.

Alison
Karen C - California
2007-01-17 01:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alison
he will be comfortable around them when
he does get around to dating and won't seem awkward. Ditto for DD -
boys can be friends.
Alison
Boys can be valuable friends. I didn't have a big brother of my own,
but some of my male friends took on that role. I was actually better
protected than a friend whose biological big brother was the classic
geek who didn't know how to throw a punch. And not just because she
only had one big brother and I had a dozen.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/16/07 -- Classy Lady in Purple (JCS)

WIP: housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
ellice
2007-01-13 00:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
C
You are totally out to lunch, my friend. If you think forbidding girls is
going to work for at most another 2 years!

ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-14 01:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
C
You are totally out to lunch, my friend. If you think forbidding girls is
going to work for at most another 2 years!
ellice
It better work for about 8 more years.

Actually, he's too strange for the girls - too socially awkward and I
really, really hope it stays that way for a long time. He's got enough on
his plate with keeping up grades and trying to go up a notch or three in
hockey.

I've laid down the law that dating is OUT, no way if you want us to pay the
bills. DD gets the same message, school first and foremost, if hockey
remains a priority, so much the better. (right about now, I'd kill for some
single sex school options for both of them; there's a pregnant sixth grader
at the middle school)

NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.

C
Dr. Brat
2007-01-14 03:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
But that was part of your education! I think it's a real mistake to
forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time
we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and
rules that allow people to find partners. It's probably best not to
moon, but dating should certainly be allowed. I dated, and yes, I made
mistakes and "wasted time" but I still managed to pull an advanced
degree out of it as well as learning what I should be looking for in a
husband by the time I was ready for one.

As someone who was often told not to do things if I wanted to continue
to have my tuition paid for, I would urge you to think seriously about
that position. It something I still really resent my mother for doing
to me and that's too bad, really.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Karen C - California
2007-01-14 04:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
But that was part of your education! I think it's a real mistake to
forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time
we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and
rules that allow people to find partners.
Got to agree with that. If girls think DS is weird now, just wait till
he's 22 and admits he's never gone on a date. I know some people who,
for various reasons, didn't date till "late", and they are socially
awkward. Personally, I'd be more inclined to forbid him to join a
fraternity than to forbid him to date.

My parents never said "you can't date till you're 16 (or 18 or 25)".
They said "we'll think about it when we meet the boy". Well, I was 15
and introduced them to the guy they still wish I'd married, so
obviously, we got permission. Unfortunately, no one since has measured
up to his standard of perfection, as far as they're concerned.

And, really, that's one of the things I think they got right. If they
had given me a firm number, then they wouldn't have been able to put
their foot down if, two weeks after that birthday, I'd brought home some
alcoholic biker dude.

By the time I went off to college, they had a pretty good picture of how
my taste in men ran, and had no major concerns about me dating NOT under
their watchful eye, since I tended toward respectable intellectuals.
I'd even turned down a boy who went to our church regularly (he would've
been acceptable to Mom), so they knew I wouldn't go out with "just anyone".
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

WIP: baby and housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
ellice
2007-01-15 17:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But that was part of your education! I think it's a real mistake to
forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time
we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and
rules that allow people to find partners.
Got to agree with that. If girls think DS is weird now, just wait till
he's 22 and admits he's never gone on a date. I know some people who,
for various reasons, didn't date till "late", and they are socially
awkward. Personally, I'd be more inclined to forbid him to join a
fraternity than to forbid him to date.
Good point. When I was in undergrad school, and hung out with a bunch of
guys from my project classes and some upper (doing combined grad and ug
classes) there was a smart guy, so geeky that us geeks felt sorry for him.
He kind of hung out with us - a little bit - as in we weren't mean to him -
and did some studying, etc. Anyhow - my little crew of "cool" mech es (we
had a boat - long story) and lots of class work - and would ocassionally go
to movies on campus - and said geek would come along to the movies (don't'
think the boat). Anyhow - the guys goaded me into a "mercy" date - this guy
had some crush on me, and finally I agreed to go out with him. Of course, I
had to drive - and went to get him - almost backed up at the door. He
totally dressed like a 55 year old guy - complete with houndstooth polyester
slacks, a Cuban shirt (the kind you see on old gentleman playing dominoes on
Calle Ocho) - outy, kind of sport-dress shirt, and oxford shoes - with hair
in kind of a weird combover. We went to a nice thai restaurant. And walked
to our table past a table of profs/wives from the Ops Resrch dept (in which
I was an undergrad resrch asst, and dating one of the grad students -
casually). I was dressed more normally (silk shirt, nice jeans, etc). The
profs all waved hi - and as I passed to go to the ladies room - grabbed me
with the big "what the heck query?" - my response - "don't ask" , and Joe
knows.

Point being, after the date - which was pleasant enough conversation, but
socially very awkward we went back to his dorm and talked for a short time.
He wanted to continue the "relationship" .Poor guy - I just looked at him
and said - I hate to seem shallow, and maybe this is - but you need to get
more like your age, and not an old man - as in clothes, look, outlook. So,
I agreed to go shopping with him (and some of our group), and help him get a
decent haircut. Thing was - I met his parents - dad worked on campus - very
nice, normal (cooler than son). He had twin younger brothers in high school
- that I liked a lot. But, the mother - wow - she was scarey. Hadn't let
him date at all in high school - or evidently in college. Bought all his
clothes for him, cut his hair . She was a little thing, with huge glasses,
and kind of eccentric looking - but the first son was totally under her
control. It was sad - and he did blossom a bit that year (at least looked
more normal, and made some more friends). But, the mother hated me. There
was no serious relationship on my part - but he got totally overwrought -
and it seemed to me that it was because of his lack of experience socially.
Hanging out with me, and some of the guys was a new experience - and as a
senior in college he was getting the freshman/sophmore thing . That summer
- I was away at work - and he would call, write - etc. It was terrible -
but finally the break-up worked, or he got the point - but I ended up being
kind of mean - which is not really my nature. I don't think that during the
school year it helped that some of the guys would tease me about him
(knowing that it was a friend thing on my part, and whatever on his). I
still remember one day - mid-way through the year - seeing him in the
hallway - outside the engineering library - stack of books, calculator on
belt, and his sweater (kind of a sweater shirt with a collar) on....
BACKWARDS. He'd been like that for quite some time. I was just walking out
of the dean's office with another student - we stopped, looked, and said
"J*** - go fix your shirt..).

I'm sure he's grown up into an accomplished scientist - but have no doubt
that his mother's domination, and strictness with him kind of backfired -
this was one really, really, socially awkward guy.
Post by Karen C - California
My parents never said "you can't date till you're 16 (or 18 or 25)".
They said "we'll think about it when we meet the boy". Well, I was 15
and introduced them to the guy they still wish I'd married, so
obviously, we got permission. Unfortunately, no one since has measured
up to his standard of perfection, as far as they're concerned.
And, really, that's one of the things I think they got right. If they
had given me a firm number, then they wouldn't have been able to put
their foot down if, two weeks after that birthday, I'd brought home some
alcoholic biker dude.
By the time I went off to college, they had a pretty good picture of how
my taste in men ran, and had no major concerns about me dating NOT under
their watchful eye, since I tended toward respectable intellectuals.
I'd even turned down a boy who went to our church regularly (he would've
been acceptable to Mom), so they knew I wouldn't go out with "just anyone".
I didn't date much in high school - I was graduating quite early. But, I
did have guy friends, and some dates (mostly college guys). The parents met
them, and I didn't go crazy, and that was that.

College - well, that involved the whole gamut - dating, some relationships,
some single times, lots of "big brothers" . But, having social skills paid
off as part of an education, and in work. Way too many of the guys I worked
with - especially early on - couldn't communicate and their social
awkwardness certainly affected opportunities. But, then again, I worked in
the "revenge of the kingdom of the nerds" - so sometimes being socially
adept, articulate would backfire in resentment from some guy wearing 2
pocket protectors.

ellice
bungadora
2007-01-14 05:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
But that was part of your education! I think it's a real mistake to
forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time
we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and
rules that allow people to find partners. It's probably best not to
moon, but dating should certainly be allowed. I dated, and yes, I made
mistakes and "wasted time" but I still managed to pull an advanced
degree out of it as well as learning what I should be looking for in a
husband by the time I was ready for one.
I'm with you on this one. Dating successfully requires practise, and
it's better to practise on other amateurs.
As for mooning, hormones being what they are, he/she will likely do
that anyway, perhaps more if they don't have an outlet.
Dora
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-14 18:28:30 UTC
Permalink
On 1/13/07 10:14 PM, in article
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
But that was part of your education!
I still think I wasted way too much time - I should have been pushing more
course work, not spending weekends at mixers and frat parties. There was
plenty of "social life" on campus - music, art, concerts, bull sessions.
Post by Dr. Brat
I think it's a real mistake to
forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time
we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and
rules that allow people to find partners. It's probably best not to
moon, but dating should certainly be allowed. I dated, and yes, I made
mistakes and "wasted time" but I still managed to pull an advanced
degree out of it as well as learning what I should be looking for in a
husband by the time I was ready for one.
As someone who was often told not to do things if I wanted to continue
to have my tuition paid for, I would urge you to think seriously about
that position. It something I still really resent my mother for doing
to me and that's too bad, really.
Elizabeth
Please note, I never said they could not have friends of the opposite sex,
hang out or go out in groups. One on one dating will not be allowed,
especially in high school. The high school years are the major time for
directed education and building the stepping stones for the rest of your
life.

C
Karen C - California
2007-01-14 21:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I still think I wasted way too much time - I should have been pushing more
course work, not spending weekends at mixers and frat parties.
Ah, but once I started dating one person seriously, I stopped going to
mixers and frat parties, because I didn't need to meet other men.

Bob and I had about half our classes together, so we helped each other
study. Our dates were not a waste of time ... they were study sessions I
probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Even when we told ourselves we
were going out to dinner, guess what we'd wind up talking about?

As I said, I'd be more inclined to ban joining a frat (so he's not
tempted to go to the parties, which are often limited to members only)
than to ban dating.

And I'd talk up the benefits of dating someone who shares your major. ;)
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

WIP: baby and housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

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Dr. Brat
2007-01-15 00:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Please note, I never said they could not have friends of the opposite sex,
hang out or go out in groups. One on one dating will not be allowed,
especially in high school. The high school years are the major time for
directed education and building the stepping stones for the rest of your
life.
Unless you are planning on having them live at home, I wouldn't make
rules for college that I couldn't enforce. I had a roommate who wasn't
allowed to date. Guess what she didn't tell her parents? And she was a
good girl who was deeply distressed by the lies, but she was also very
much in love with a boy of whom they would never have approved (not
Filipino).

By the time kids go off to college all you can do is hope that you've
already raised them right. Forbidding one on one dating at that point
would cause you and them more grief than it would be worth, IMHO. The
last thing you want to do is to complicate the lines of communication
with you.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Karen C - California
2007-01-15 01:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Unless you are planning on having them live at home, I wouldn't make
rules for college that I couldn't enforce. I had a roommate who wasn't
allowed to date. Guess what she didn't tell her parents?
I recently worked on a criminal case with much the same facts. Very
sheltered, immature girl from a strict non-Anglo family. Because her
parents forbid her to date, she couldn't ask their advice when things
went bad. And it was definitely a situation where she needed to talk to
someone older and wiser, and not her equally-sheltered teenage friends.

It seems this slime had been preying on naive, sheltered freshgirls for
years, knowing he could get away with a lot because if they weren't
supposed to date, they would never say "what should I do, Mom?", and,
moreover, that he had an added level of control over them by threatening
"if you break up with me, I'll call your parents and tell them you were
dating, and then you'll get in big trouble."

It says a lot that the girls were more afraid of their parents finding
out they'd been dating than of his temper.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

WIP: baby and housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-15 13:35:03 UTC
Permalink
But, they won't be sheltered, just no one on one dates. She'll be well able
to take care of herself. She's already learned which boys to avoid (like the
one that told her playing hockey wasn't for girls) and which ones are good
friends.

Him - there are things that are more important than girls and I suspect it
will continue that way for another 4-6 years.
ellice
2007-01-15 18:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
But, they won't be sheltered, just no one on one dates. She'll be well able
to take care of herself. She's already learned which boys to avoid (like the
one that told her playing hockey wasn't for girls) and which ones are good
friends.
Are you feeling put upon? Perhaps the thing to consider is that you'd
prefer they not date one-on-one, and when the situation arises - deal with
it honestly rather than threateningly. As far as DD - what one does in the
2nd or 3rd grade is not necessarily an indicator for life. Worrying now,
seema kind of absurd as you have plenty of time, and she has plenty of
growiong up to do. I was a terrific tomboy, the family joke is that my dad
though I was his son - I played all the rough sports, etc. But, guess what
- I still found guys to go out with - and marry.

Judgment of 8,9, 10 year old boys versus who they become at 16,17, 18 and
beyond is kind of silly. This sounds like setting up some rigid, not
open-minded way of looking, thinking about people. And she's pretty darned
young to be worrying about this.
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Him - there are things that are more important than girls and I suspect it
will continue that way for another 4-6 years.
It may. It may not. It may for about 2 more years, and then something will
hit him. I'd say let them know you don't want them to be planning on
serious dating in high school - but - jeez - see what happens when the
situation comes up. Is this kid never supposed to go to a dance? Even when
they go as a group - a lot are as dates - but several couples going
together. You don't want this to backfire .

Hopefully your kids will develop social skills - beyond the rink - and
you'll encourage that. Wait and see - you know - bend like a willow - not
break.

ellice
lucretia borgia
2007-01-15 19:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Cheryl Isaak <***@comcast.net>,in
rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by Cheryl Isaak
But, they won't be sheltered, just no one on one dates. She'll be well able
to take care of herself. She's already learned which boys to avoid (like the
one that told her playing hockey wasn't for girls) and which ones are good
friends.
Him - there are things that are more important than girls and I suspect it
will continue that way for another 4-6 years.
There's bad news for you regarding DS, coming to you soon lol
Olwyn Mary
2007-01-15 02:33:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Please note, I never said they could not have friends of the opposite sex,
hang out or go out in groups. One on one dating will not be allowed,
especially in high school. The high school years are the major time for
directed education and building the stepping stones for the rest of your
life.
C
Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl.

I'm a grandma now, both of my kids are married with babies of their own.
I remember clearly when they were in high school. I was on parents'
committees with mothers who felt as you do. Let me tell what the
outcome was. Two of the boys came out of college as still total dweebs
- no decent girl would date them even though they were by now making
mucho bucks. They were forever labelled as "mama's boys". Likewise,
two of the girls are still decidedly peculiar. The rest - well, they
just deceived their parents. They would announce they were going out
with friends, then very quickly pair off. One girl had an abortion,
paid for by the boy, and her parents never did get to hear about it
while I still lived in that town.

Do you want to be reasonable and keep an eye on their dates, or do you
want to be lied to?

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Brenda Lewis
2007-01-14 21:54:06 UTC
Permalink
I didn't date until college. Because I hadn't experienced the casual
dating and break-ups common to middle and high school, I was too naive
to realize I was in a bad relationship and ended up marrying the guy
during my second year of college, endured his abuse for a few years, and
then beat myself up for several more years because I couldn't make the
marriage work. Relationships are a part of education about life and it
is better if they get some experience in handling dating situations
while you are there to guide them than to wait until they are out on
their own and rudderless.

Not to mention if they don't date and everyone around them does, the
nasty rumor mill will fire up and they don't need that either.
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I've laid down the law that dating is OUT, no way if you want us to pay the
bills. DD gets the same message, school first and foremost, if hockey
remains a priority, so much the better. (right about now, I'd kill for some
single sex school options for both of them; there's a pregnant sixth grader
at the middle school)
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
--
Brenda
Help Project Gutenberg--become a Distributed Proofreader
http://www.pgdp.net/
Karen C - California
2007-01-14 22:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda Lewis
Relationships are a part of education about life and it
is better if they get some experience in handling dating situations
while you are there to guide them
As I said, by the time I left for college, my parents had a good idea
what my taste in men ran to, and knew they didn't have to worry what I
was going to do when I was away from their watchful eye.
Post by Brenda Lewis
then beat myself up for several more years because I couldn't make the
marriage work
Now, that's one thing that I wish my parents had told me. They had me
convinced that every marriage could be made to work and that there was
no valid reason for anyone to divorce. Like Brenda, I endured abuse
because I had the idea that the marriage would eventually work if I just
gave in more often. But it was a classic case of "give him an inch and
he'll take a mile"; because he got away with something small, he tried
something medium, and when he got away with that, he tried something large.

Eventually, I went to a church counselor for advice on what more I could
do to make it work better, and that was the first time that I ever heard
"some men shouldn't be married". If the marriage wasn't working when I
was giving 110% and getting zero, then it wasn't going to work any
better if I gave 200%. When a CHURCH counselor tells you the solution
is divorce, you know your parents are wrong with their advice to "just
make it work".

Because I had never dated a "bad boy", I had no clue that there are
people who will say what you want to hear rather than telling the truth.
X#1 and I went through church pre-wedding counseling and the minister
was impressed with his answers to the questions. He may have known that
the correct answer is "I would never ever hit a woman, we will talk out
all our problems in a calm and reasonable fashion", but that wasn't the
way he handled it when we had our first post-marriage disagreement. In
fact, nothing he said to the minister in those sessions (other than his
name) was the truth. It may be argued that the rosy glow of love
blinded me to his faults, but he was such a practiced liar that he
bamboozled a minister who wasn't starry-eyed.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

WIP: baby and housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
ellice
2007-01-15 17:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Oh - that is a thought I didn't need.... It goes along with realizing DS is
having them.....
You're just now realizing that - bet it's been a while - to yuckify your
day.
Ellice - r,d, & h
He's only 14! And knows girls are forbidden until he's out of college.
Grades, hockey, the only things are on his plate.
C
You are totally out to lunch, my friend. If you think forbidding girls is
going to work for at most another 2 years!
ellice
It better work for about 8 more years.
Actually, he's too strange for the girls - too socially awkward and I
really, really hope it stays that way for a long time. He's got enough on
his plate with keeping up grades and trying to go up a notch or three in
hockey.
I've laid down the law that dating is OUT, no way if you want us to pay the
bills. DD gets the same message, school first and foremost, if hockey
remains a priority, so much the better. (right about now, I'd kill for some
single sex school options for both of them; there's a pregnant sixth grader
at the middle school)
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college -
there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible
and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
OTOH, if you have no perspective on dealing with the preferred partner type,
then you do waste a lot of time. But, honestly, do you want your children
to grow up socially inept, as in to become the next Ted Kacinsky - to take
an extreme.

Dating, spending time in social groups is part of the normal, socialization,
maturation process. Right now - my observation of the godchildren and their
friends - is lots of group dating - much lower perecentage of what you
likely think of as dating.

Socializing in college, high school - is a good thing. Keeping the
priorities straight is the key. Kids who don't develop social skills by the
time they're through with college - well, heck - I've worked with plenty of
them - and it's not always a good thing.

You're doing a good job with your kids - have some faith in them, too.

FWIW - from my single-sex schooled DH (til senior year), and the crazy SILs
who went to catholic high schools and catholic colleges - the sisters were
definitely wilder in behaviour. DH said it didn't really make a difference
when he switched to the public high school for senior year (move to DC) -
cause those single sex schools all have sister/brother schools. Kind of the
forbidden fruit thing happens.

When I went to university - pretty much the 1st year of full-time female
students (as in about 170 to 12,000) it was pretty weird. We likely dated
less - and the guys had plenty of girls from the surrounding nursing school,
fashion school, female college, etc. I wasted time, too - but it's all part
of growing up. And my grades recovered ;^)

ellice
Lucille
2007-01-12 16:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Why are you so surprised at the fact that your dog was doing that. I'm sure
you know people who talk or walk or even sing in their sleep so why not
Puckster. After all, dogs are people too !!!

Lucille
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
--
Jere
http://community.webshots.com/user/Jere224422
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
ellice
2007-01-13 00:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucille
Why are you so surprised at the fact that your dog was doing that. I'm sure
you know people who talk or walk or even sing in their sleep so why not
Puckster. After all, dogs are people too !!!
Lucille
I'm not at all surprised with him making little noises, his feet moving,
tail, etc. But, I've had dogs my entire life - since I was 4 - and I've
never, ever heard one howl in his sleep. It was really, really, a loud,
long baying - and he didn't waken. Usually when people actually shout in
their sleep they kind of waken a bit. Neither the dog, nor the DH actually
did. I'm a bit curious if anyone else has had a dog make quite such an
demonstration of dreaming - it was loud and long. This was definitely a new
extreme for me.

Ellice
Post by Lucille
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
--
Jere
http://community.webshots.com/user/Jere224422
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Lucille
2007-01-13 00:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Post by Lucille
Why are you so surprised at the fact that your dog was doing that. I'm sure
you know people who talk or walk or even sing in their sleep so why not
Puckster. After all, dogs are people too !!!
Lucille
I'm not at all surprised with him making little noises, his feet moving,
tail, etc. But, I've had dogs my entire life - since I was 4 - and I've
never, ever heard one howl in his sleep. It was really, really, a loud,
long baying - and he didn't waken. Usually when people actually shout in
their sleep they kind of waken a bit. Neither the dog, nor the DH actually
did. I'm a bit curious if anyone else has had a dog make quite such an
demonstration of dreaming - it was loud and long. This was definitely a new
extreme for me.
Ellice
Puff just kind of gives a out a couple of very low, very soft woofs and
whimpers, and quiet little snores. His little feet will go for all they're
worth but no howling. On occasion he will wag his tail as though he's
having the best time. The only problem I have with that is that he sleeps
right up against me and when his furiously wagging tail touches me it's
like someone is using a feather duster and that's not a fun way to wake up.
Lucille>
Dr. Brat
2007-01-12 19:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jere Williams
It sounds like your doggie has a very active dream life. I think that's
rather nice.
We had a dachsie at one time who actually had wet dreams. That really
wasn't so nice.
Yeah, Satin used to do that, too. Ick. Then at about 11, he started
peeing in his sleep. Luckily, that was treatable.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Mary
2007-01-12 19:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Clara, a 60# mutt who lives with me, also sleeps on the bed -- but not
IN it. When she gets on the bed she goes to my side and settles down.
However, to get her to move, when she was very young I gave her a
"snack" on her spot, and she moved to it without a fuss and ate her
snack while I got into bed and enjoyed the warm spot. The "snack" is
actually 3 pieces of her regular dry dog food, but if I call it "snack"
she is excited -- go figure! We still do the bedtime snack routine.
About linens -- I'm very fussy, too, and didn't like having a dog on my
lovely bedspread. So I put it away, and for my bedspread I have two
king-sized flat sheets, and alternate them. When the sheets get washed
every 5 days or so, so does whichever flat sheet was that week's
bedspread, and the other one goes on top of the bed. For a queen-sized
bed you can use queen-sized flat sheets with a dust ruffle, or a
king-sized flat sheet. Clara dreams, too, and even barks and howls in
her sleep. I think lots of dogs do that.
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Bruce
2007-01-12 20:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Until we moved up here we had always had German Shepherd Dogs (GSD =
Alsatian). One of our first GSDs always slept on the bed when I was
away working; my wife was SO kind-hearted that she let the dog creep
slowly across the bed, pushing her in the back, until she had to get out
of bed and get in again on the other side.
--
Bruce Fletcher
Stronsay, Orkney
<www.stronsay.co.uk/claremont>
(Remove teeth to reply)
Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons because you are crunchy and taste
good with ketchup.
ellice
2007-01-13 00:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary
Clara, a 60# mutt who lives with me, also sleeps on the bed -- but not
IN it. When she gets on the bed she goes to my side and settles down.
However, to get her to move, when she was very young I gave her a
"snack" on her spot, and she moved to it without a fuss and ate her
snack while I got into bed and enjoyed the warm spot. The "snack" is
actually 3 pieces of her regular dry dog food, but if I call it "snack"
she is excited -- go figure! We still do the bedtime snack routine.
Great idea. When we first got him he was on daily heartworm med -so that
was his "good boy" treat for bedtime. When we switched to monthly, we
started giving him a vitamin in the evening as his treat. When it's bed
time, we tell him "time to migrate" - don't ask why - it's a DH thing. Of
course, the dog has a locker room (crate), penalty box (hallway area),
training table (mealS), and goes for a skate (not a walk). He also knows
"towel time" - which evolved from swimming or rain - he comes over to get
towelled off. So, at migration time, he'll search for the toy of the
moment, and bring it with him - bounding up the stairs, and onto the bed.
But, he will wait on the carpet if we get him off right away, or one of us
is getting the bed ready for sleep, then he waits patiently. Actually to
get him to go to his place at the foot - that command became "go lie down"
and he'll move from the cuddle place to the foot of the bed.
Post by Mary
About linens -- I'm very fussy, too, and didn't like having a dog on my
lovely bedspread. So I put it away, and for my bedspread I have two
king-sized flat sheets, and alternate them. When the sheets get washed
every 5 days or so, so does whichever flat sheet was that week's
bedspread, and the other one goes on top of the bed. For a queen-sized
bed you can use queen-sized flat sheets with a dust ruffle, or a
king-sized flat sheet. Clara dreams, too, and even barks and howls in
her sleep. I think lots of dogs do that.
Good idea about the sheets. Basically we have this mid-weight quilted
coverlet that looks nice - and I wash regularly - it just stays pulled up
over the bed linens. It's just us - so, well, while we have really nice
sheets - the dog doesn't get to them - most of the time. He is pretty funny
about it. The breeders - who have both his parents and a brother - say
their dogs have always slept in a lump with them on the bed. And I think
the female wants to sleep up at the head of the bed - so when they babysat
Puckster as a pup there was a big territorial thing going on.

I'm glad to hear that other dogs howl in their sleep - this was definitely a
first for me.

Ellice
Post by Mary
Post by ellice
Well, thought I'd share this first with the group.
The other night, we go to bed a bit on the late side - like 2 am. And it's
cold in the house at night because we turn the heat down pretty low - so I
will confess that the dog, Puckster, tends to sleep on the foot of the bed
in winter. Yes, I know it's bad. He does have a big "sleepie" cushion,
complete with a fleecey pet throw on it - which he uses - bui it's in the
corner, and sometimes I guess it's either cool, or his pack desire which has
him with us. So, it's a big king-size bed, and we keep a coverlet folded at
the base for the dog (I have issues with linens and cleanliness if the dog
really tries to get "in the bed" - so seriously - I'm constantaly changing
the duvet cover to alternate with the winter blanket). But, for the most
part Puckster tends to curl up either behind someone's knees or we push him
to the foot on the coverlet. It's fine. In the morning he sniffs around -
comes and sticks his big nose in your ear and sniffs - I guess that's
checking to make sure we're alright.
Anyhow - the dog, as most dogs, sleeps pretty deeply, and easily. He tends
to get on the bed while we're getting washed up, and then one of us has to
forcibly move him - because if he's soundly asleep it's like a 60# dead
weight - and even if he wakes a bit - in the drowsy state he's not
cooperative (stubborn male).
Point of story. We've seen the dog have little daydreams - laying on his
side - suddenly his feet start twitching, he makes little whuffling sounds -
we figure he's dreaming of running, chasing something (he is a field dog).
It's cute - sometimes his lips twitch. Very cute.
Suddenly, at 4:50 AM - I bolt upright - as I hear what sounds like the
hounds of the baskervilles. The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Really. Fast asleep - and baying this long, lowing, howling, sound - for at
least 30 seconds. Then just stops, and he's doing the doggie whuffle,
little occasional snore thing. To make this even better - neither he nor
the DH woke-up. Though, DH reached over in his sleep and shut his alarm off
(which led to his being late for work though he made his meeting). I
promise - this dog did not wake up - at all. Only once before has he howled
like that - in tune sort of singing - with a passing fire engine. His
mother evidently sings at sirens. But, I've never, ever had a dog howl in
it's sleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
ellice
Tara D
2007-01-13 05:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary
Clara, a 60# mutt who lives with me, also sleeps on the bed -- but not
IN it. When she gets on the bed she goes to my side and settles down.
However, to get her to move, when she was very young I gave her a
"snack" on her spot, and she moved to it without a fuss and ate her
snack while I got into bed and enjoyed the warm spot. The "snack" is
actually 3 pieces of her regular dry dog food, but if I call it "snack"
she is excited -- go figure!
Hype is everything. Ours has so many food allergies that we had to
restrict him to his prescription food only. But at 6, he's become
accustomed to 'cookies' being part of life (when coming from doing
business, as well as bed time snack). Cookies now consist of ground
prescription food, water, heated on BBQ to dry them out again. And he
loves them, probably more than any other cookie we've given him. But
it's all hype. It started with us being all excited about these new
'zeddy' (food is called ZD) cookies. He drew his clues from us. We
just even say 'zeddy' and he's bounce and prance with excitement.

Let's not even discuss the hours of pleasure he gets in guarding BBQ
from imagined squirrel thiefs when they are cooking, the sheer
exuberance in the taste test of each batch.

All hype.
Post by Mary
About linens -- I'm very fussy, too, and didn't like having a dog on my
lovely bedspread. So I put it away, and for my bedspread I have two
king-sized flat sheets, and alternate them. When the sheets get washed
every 5 days or so, so does whichever flat sheet was that week's
bedspread, and the other one goes on top of the bed. For a queen-sized
bed you can use queen-sized flat sheets with a dust ruffle, or a
king-sized flat sheet. Clara dreams, too, and even barks and howls in
her sleep. I think lots of dogs do that.
I simply went to duvets. The covers get washed with sheets. And the
middles get washed every few months. I got the 3-season one; summer
(bahahahaha) weight, autumn (bahahaha) weight; which snap together for
an equally funny winter weight. The middle weight is used over the
winter, the summer weight gets used spring and fall, Blue keeps it
over the summer too, but I just use the empty cover. We tried the
winter weight when I first bought them; more heat than I will ever
need (short of a major power failure), even more than Blue could
stand, and he always swore there could never be enough blankets.

Tara
Joan E.
2007-01-16 14:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
Guess what? Yesterday when I was home watching tv, my dog howled, too!
Not *real* loud but it lasted for probably 7 seconds. My legs were
blocking the position of her head and I figured if I put them down
she'd wake up (she's a pretty light sleeper). I thought of your
message immediately! :)

Odd how I've never heard her do it before you brought this up! Is
there something in the air?

Joan
ellice
2007-01-16 15:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joan E.
Post by ellice
The dog, between us at foot of bed, is laying
on his side/back - head extended and baying at the moon. Fast asleep.
Strange. Just thought I'd share.
Guess what? Yesterday when I was home watching tv, my dog howled, too!
Not *real* loud but it lasted for probably 7 seconds. My legs were
blocking the position of her head and I figured if I put them down
she'd wake up (she's a pretty light sleeper). I thought of your
message immediately! :)
Odd how I've never heard her do it before you brought this up! Is
there something in the air?
LOL - you never know. These furry peoples have their own ways! It's really
gusting here, and right now Puckster is playing guardian - after crazy
frisbee thrwoing out back -he's now perched up on a chair looking out the
front and surveying the blowing around the street - he looks quite serious
about these duties.

The other day, DH pointed out that the mysteriously opening RH Sunroom door
was caused by the dog. We can't really use that room right now - because
it's crammed with all the LR furniture and stuff. So, the french doors on
either side of our fireplace stay closed. But, it seems the dog had found
his way into pushing one open, sneaking through, and found a nice, comfy
place on a lr chair (covered with sheet) that is facing the rear uncovered
french doors. Pretty smart - I guess he can see the yard, and get some sun
from there.

ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-17 19:28:02 UTC
Permalink
( I started this before the ice storm hit and took the power with it!)

First - what ever rule we make for him, has to apply to her. So, since we
are especially worried about her dating, it makes sense to make the age as
late as possible. Is no dating in college a bit over the top? yes, but
given I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65), I think I can ask that of her. She gets to start life is as
small a debt as possible. Him, I'm more worried about the parties and
drinking and will consider his abstinence from those as his contribution to
his college fees. Can he/she go to the school dance? Yes, I drop off and
pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop
and go at the rink, but never the mall.

Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs
(especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a
courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one
night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked
some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children
(boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering
forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes,
hooking up - no thanks.
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
But, they won't be sheltered, just no one on one dates. She'll be well able
to take care of herself. She's already learned which boys to avoid (like the
one that told her playing hockey wasn't for girls) and which ones are good
friends.
Are you feeling put upon? Perhaps the thing to consider is that you'd
prefer they not date one-on-one, and when the situation arises - deal with
it honestly rather than threateningly. As far as DD - what one does in the
2nd or 3rd grade is not necessarily an indicator for life. Worrying now,
seema kind of absurd as you have plenty of time, and she has plenty of
growiong up to do. I was a terrific tomboy, the family joke is that my dad
though I was his son - I played all the rough sports, etc. But, guess what
- I still found guys to go out with - and marry.
Judgment of 8,9, 10 year old boys versus who they become at 16,17, 18 and
beyond is kind of silly. This sounds like setting up some rigid, not
open-minded way of looking, thinking about people. And she's pretty darned
young to be worrying about this.
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Him - there are things that are more important than girls and I suspect it
will continue that way for another 4-6 years.
It may. It may not. It may for about 2 more years, and then something will
hit him. I'd say let them know you don't want them to be planning on
serious dating in high school - but - jeez - see what happens when the
situation comes up. Is this kid never supposed to go to a dance? Even when
they go as a group - a lot are as dates - but several couples going
together. You don't want this to backfire .
Hopefully your kids will develop social skills - beyond the rink - and
you'll encourage that. Wait and see - you know - bend like a willow - not
break.
ellice
Lucille
2007-01-17 19:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
( I started this before the ice storm hit and took the power with it!)
First - what ever rule we make for him, has to apply to her. So, since we
are especially worried about her dating, it makes sense to make the age as
late as possible. Is no dating in college a bit over the top? yes, but
given I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65), I think I can ask that of her. She gets to start life is as
small a debt as possible. Him, I'm more worried about the parties and
drinking and will consider his abstinence from those as his contribution to
his college fees. Can he/she go to the school dance? Yes, I drop off and
pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop
and go at the rink, but never the mall.
Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs
(especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a
courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one
night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked
some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children
(boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering
forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes,
hooking up - no thanks.
Your plan sounds like a good one, and does sound like it's well thought
out and reasonable. But, and it's a big but, please try to be open to an
occasional lapse and the possibility that life happens and might get in
the way of your very rational thinking. Telling them that you are using
your 401K might be a turnoff and could make them think that rather than
allow you to sacrifice for them, they will just go to work and do it their
way.
This probably is doable through high school but I'm not so sure of whether
it will work when they go to college and aren't at home and under your
thumb.

However, one thing I believe to be true is that you are a very good
influence and can teach them right from wrong so if this situation is
approached in your usual efficient and rational way it has a good chance of
succeeding. Hopefully your kids will live up to your expectations and being
well brought up will help them to stay on the straight and narrow.

Lucille
Karen C - California
2007-01-17 20:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65)
<BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT> Wrong answer.

You never use your retirement funds to pay for college, because you will
not have many years to replenish them. By sending her out into the
world with as little debt as possible, you increase the chances that she
will end up supporting you in your old age. This is one time when it is
important to look out for Number One first.

Let her take out the loans, and then, if you find that you are in a
position to help her after graduation, you can help her make the
payments. OTOH, if you've lost your job or become disabled, you'll
still have your 401k to fall back on yourself.

Having those student loans helped me establish a credit rating. And
<giggle> when I refinanced with another agency, the initial loan showed
on my credit record as "paid in full" -- the apparent ability to pay off
such a large loan in about a year got me much larger credit lines than I
would've gotten based just on my income.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/16/07 -- Classy Lady in Purple (JCS)

WIP: housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Brenda Lewis
2007-01-17 21:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65)
<BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT> Wrong answer.
You never use your retirement funds to pay for college, because you will
not have many years to replenish them. By sending her out into the
world with as little debt as possible, you increase the chances that she
will end up supporting you in your old age. This is one time when it is
important to look out for Number One first.
Let her take out the loans, and then, if you find that you are in a
position to help her after graduation, you can help her make the
payments. OTOH, if you've lost your job or become disabled, you'll
still have your 401k to fall back on yourself.
Having those student loans helped me establish a credit rating. And
<giggle> when I refinanced with another agency, the initial loan showed
on my credit record as "paid in full" -- the apparent ability to pay off
such a large loan in about a year got me much larger credit lines than I
would've gotten based just on my income.
I have to agree with Karen on this one. Student lending is a
competitive market and the interest rates are quite favorable. And who
knows--after scholarships they might not need much money if all goes
well. And don't let some bug-eyed adviser tell you that students
shouldn't work while in college because that is total hogwash. Unless
the student has a serious learning disability and really does need three
times as many hours of study to accomplish what is expected, the time
spent at a job is one of the most valuable experiences of college. Yes,
their own income and savings count more against them on financial aid
applications, but if your income and resources are high enough that they
won't get need-based grants it really isn't a big issue. The money you
have in retirement plans does not count against them for financial aid
so you could have millions socked away and that would be invisible
(unless you are old enough to have mandatory withdrawals from the
account). And if you really must cough up some money, an additional
mortgage is still wiser than raiding your retirement. At least you get
to write off the mortgage interest on your taxes!
--
Brenda
Help Project Gutenberg--become a Distributed Proofreader
http://www.pgdp.net/
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-17 21:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65)
<BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT> Wrong answer.
You never use your retirement funds to pay for college, because you will
not have many years to replenish them. By sending her out into the
world with as little debt as possible, you increase the chances that she
will end up supporting you in your old age. This is one time when it is
important to look out for Number One first.
Let her take out the loans, and then, if you find that you are in a
position to help her after graduation, you can help her make the
payments. OTOH, if you've lost your job or become disabled, you'll
still have your 401k to fall back on yourself.
Having those student loans helped me establish a credit rating. And
<giggle> when I refinanced with another agency, the initial loan showed
on my credit record as "paid in full" -- the apparent ability to pay off
such a large loan in about a year got me much larger credit lines than I
would've gotten based just on my income.
It's not the only source of retirement dollars. DH and I have ear marked a
pair of 401K accounts as "college money". These are left all to grow and
aren't part of our planned retirement monies. UNH is currently $19K
(assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition.
Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if
they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to
start life with 100K or more in debts.
Dr. Brat
2007-01-17 23:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
It's not the only source of retirement dollars. DH and I have ear marked a
pair of 401K accounts as "college money". These are left all to grow and
aren't part of our planned retirement monies. UNH is currently $19K
(assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition.
Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if
they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to
start life with 100K or more in debts.
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12. You can still use the 401K to pay if that's your favorite method,
but you get more time for them to accumulate if you take the loans. And
it'll start their credit records out right.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
ellice
2007-01-18 04:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
It's not the only source of retirement dollars. DH and I have ear marked a
pair of 401K accounts as "college money". These are left all to grow and
aren't part of our planned retirement monies. UNH is currently $19K
(assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition.
Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if
they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to
start life with 100K or more in debts.
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12. You can still use the 401K to pay if that's your favorite method,
but you get more time for them to accumulate if you take the loans. And
it'll start their credit records out right.
Yup, I did similar. Got the loans, they were a great supplement and
necessity, actually. Even my fairly wealthy brother had the DN take out the
max she could for law school - with his intent that he will pay them back
for her as they can. But, for me - mine were deferred while in grad school,
and then eventually I ended up paying the last $6K off in a lump early.
Depending on careers - I think there are some options that allow you more of
a deferment or some forgiveness - like doing the Peace Corps or inner city
teaching - as examples - but I don't know that those are exactly correct.

You can always pay the loans back for them - and if things change, well,
then everyone works on paying them back.

Unless, though I'd hate to think this - the money thing is your way of
forcing them into what seems an exceptionally strict behaviour. Personally,
I don't think forcing those kind of things works out well - it tends to
inspire rebellion. If you trust your kids not to be total asses, and you
trust the education both moral and intellectual that you've given them, then
it would seem that by the time they're young adults they should be able to
make some social/relationship decisions - good, bad, indifferent and learn
from them. I mean, honestly, what if they decid they've had enough hockey?
Then there is no acceptable social outlet for them - and some of this
rigidity seems destined to turn them into social pariahs. Not to mention,
likely forcing them into some guilt-ridden bouts of lying to the parents to
be able to do something social, etc. or flipping totally and going really
wild.

You certainly have time to think about reality with DD, as she's years from
any of this. And why not consider your position now as a preferred
guideline, but think of reconsideration when perhaps DS actually does want
to go out with someone of the female persuasion. It just makes me sad that
evidently there you are in NH, and all the teen-agers you either know or
hear about are so far into the "bad" - while here in an urban area sure
there are problems, but I know so many that are just fine, and much better
than that.

ellice
Karen C - California
2007-01-18 07:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Unless, though I'd hate to think this - the money thing is your way of
forcing them into what seems an exceptionally strict behaviour. Personally,
I don't think forcing those kind of things works out well
No, it doesn't. My mother once threatened to disinherit me if I didn't
do what she wanted, and I said "so what?" I was going to be earning my
own money, I didn't need hers. They're not multi-millionaires, so no
great loss if I walked away from it.

Do not be surprised, Cheryl, if DS (who doesn't much like school in the
first place, IIRC) decides he'd rather have a girlfriend than go to
college if you're going to make him choose between his inamorata and
your money. You may live to regret this hard line.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/4/07 - January/Snowflake Sampler (Curtis Boehringer)

WIP: housewarming gift, July birthstone, Flowers of Hawaii
(Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Karen C - California
2007-01-18 07:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.

His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/4/07 - January/Snowflake Sampler (Curtis Boehringer)

WIP: housewarming gift, July birthstone, Flowers of Hawaii
(Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-18 11:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
ellice
2007-01-18 14:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Wow - that's weird. Mine were federally guaranteed, and less than 2% I'm
sure. Actually - they were interest free during school, then accrued once
out.

Ellice
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-18 15:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Wow - that's weird. Mine were federally guaranteed, and less than 2% I'm
sure. Actually - they were interest free during school, then accrued once
out.
Ellice
I had 2 years of federal loans at 2%, 2 more at 7%; both post graduation pay
off. Because my folks were living outside the country at the time and my
level of income at the time (working multiple jobs), I was declared an
"independent minor" and not eligible for the federal loans. I still snagged
loans via the MA program, but interest started sooner after graduation.


C
T Michelle Jensen
2007-01-21 01:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Depends on whether or not you qualify for 'subsidized' (meaning the gov't
pays the interest while you're in school) or not - almost anyone can get
unsubsidized now, in almost any amount. The interest is however,
tax-deductible when you start paying - that's why many folks make quarterly
interest payments even when in deferment, plus it keeps the interest from
being capitalized.
Post by ellice
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Wow - that's weird. Mine were federally guaranteed, and less than 2% I'm
sure. Actually - they were interest free during school, then accrued once
out.
Ellice
Karen C - California
2007-01-18 16:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Mine were interest-free while I was in school, but started being 7%
after I left school.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/4/07 - January/Snowflake Sampler (Curtis Boehringer)

WIP: housewarming gift, July birthstone, Flowers of Hawaii
(Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Dr. Brat
2007-01-18 19:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Not while you were in school, they weren't, or shouldn't have been.
Federally guaranteed loans are interest free until you start paying them
back. At that point, you just pay back the whole thing, unless your
401k is making more than you are paying in interest, in which case, it
might be worth paying them on schedule.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-18 20:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Brat
Post by Cheryl Isaak
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Dr. Brat
But you don't have to start paying the loans until 6 months after
graduation. So it's free money while they're still in school. My
father had me take loans (while we qualified - Reagan lowered the
ceiling) and then he paid them off when I was done. Extra bennie for
him that I was in grad school for 8 years, so he had that money free for
12.
Friend of mine did the same thing. His dad was a high-ranking exec with
a corporation I know you've heard of, so he certainly didn't NEED the
loans as a make-or-break to getting an education. He used some of the
loan money to be the first person on campus to have a computer (Trash-80
anyone?) and actually laughed about the government paying for his
expensive toy.
His dad's money, meanwhile, was invested at a good interest rate, so he
was earning money on what would've been spent on tuition while the
tuition money was interest-free.
Interest free - mine were 7%
Not while you were in school, they weren't, or shouldn't have been.
Federally guaranteed loans are interest free until you start paying them
back. At that point, you just pay back the whole thing, unless your
401k is making more than you are paying in interest, in which case, it
might be worth paying them on schedule.
Elizabeth
Some of the loans I was offered through the State of MA did start accruing
interest prior to graduation, with interest waived if you taught in MA for x
years. The loan I did take (senior year) had two options accrue at 3% from
signing or 7% starting 9 months post graduation. They only offered those
packages at the start of the 80's.


C
Joan E.
2007-01-18 17:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
UNH is currently $19K
(assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition.
Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if
they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to
start life with 100K or more in debts.
Cheryl, I *told* you to send him to UND!!!! :) Out-of -state tuition
right now is 13,786.00 + approx.4,600 for room & board for the year.
That's still $1000 cheaper than your in-state. UND is a good school
and you *know* we have a top-notch hockey program (with *the*
state-of-the-art rink!)...and the women's team is up-and-coming, too!.
We have many excellent programs, school-wise, for them to go into, too.
UND is one of the top schools for the money in the nation according to
surveys.

Yup, ND is the way to go! :)

Joan
Cheryl Isaak
2007-01-18 19:29:58 UTC
Permalink
On 1/18/07 12:43 PM, in article
Post by Joan E.
Post by Cheryl Isaak
UNH is currently $19K
(assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition.
Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if
they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to
start life with 100K or more in debts.
Cheryl, I *told* you to send him to UND!!!! :) Out-of -state tuition
right now is 13,786.00 + approx.4,600 for room & board for the year.
That's still $1000 cheaper than your in-state. UND is a good school
and you *know* we have a top-notch hockey program (with *the*
state-of-the-art rink!)...and the women's team is up-and-coming, too!.
We have many excellent programs, school-wise, for them to go into, too.
UND is one of the top schools for the money in the nation according to
surveys.
Yup, ND is the way to go! :)
Joan
You want him?
Karen C - California
2007-01-19 02:24:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joan E.
Yup, ND is the way to go! :)
Joan
And on weekends, he can visit Auntie Joan and eat her out of house and home!

Actually, I'd say it's an excellent idea, Cheryl, since you'd have Joan
on campus keeping an eye on him for you.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/16/07 -- Classy Lady in Purple (JCS)

WIP: housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
Susan Hartman
2007-01-17 22:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by Cheryl Isaak
I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65)
<BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT> Wrong answer.
You never use your retirement funds to pay for college, because you will
not have many years to replenish them. By sending her out into the
world with as little debt as possible, you increase the chances that she
will end up supporting you in your old age. This is one time when it is
important to look out for Number One first.
Let her take out the loans, and then, if you find that you are in a
position to help her after graduation, you can help her make the
payments. OTOH, if you've lost your job or become disabled, you'll
still have your 401k to fall back on yourself.
Having those student loans helped me establish a credit rating. And
<giggle> when I refinanced with another agency, the initial loan showed
on my credit record as "paid in full" -- the apparent ability to pay off
such a large loan in about a year got me much larger credit lines than I
would've gotten based just on my income.
I totally agree that a *little* debt can be a good thing. For one
thing, when the student knows that they are financially responsible, and
not having everything handed to them, it makes them appreciate education
more. They're really invested in it then. But also, the responsibility
of having and repaying a loan is an important life lesson with true
benefits.

When DD graduated college, she lived at home for six months while
searching for a good job. Got the job - and her driver's license - and
was able to go out and buy herself a car with no co-signer because she
had a great credit score from always paying her credit card on time and
being ahead on her student loans. Ditto for the apt...no problem
qualifying as a renter.

DS, on the other hand, always pays cash...and consequently had trouble
getting a credit card. Even after he bought his house (though he didn't
pay cash for that - got a mortgage). He even bought his brand-new car
with cash - no loan. But couldn't get a cell phone without a credit
card, and had trouble qualifying for the card for several years --
believe it or not, since we all get multiple offers every day in the
mail. He did, too, and filled them out, but got declined repeatedly. So
just getting that junk mail is no guarantee of actually getting a card.
Especially if you're a single male in your early 20s!

sue
--
--
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
http://www.dirtylinen.com
Ericka Kammerer
2007-01-17 20:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Isaak
( I started this before the ice storm hit and took the power with it!)
First - what ever rule we make for him, has to apply to her. So, since we
are especially worried about her dating, it makes sense to make the age as
late as possible. Is no dating in college a bit over the top? yes, but
given I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it
before 65), I think I can ask that of her. She gets to start life is as
small a debt as possible. Him, I'm more worried about the parties and
drinking and will consider his abstinence from those as his contribution to
his college fees. Can he/she go to the school dance? Yes, I drop off and
pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop
and go at the rink, but never the mall.
Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs
(especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a
courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one
night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked
some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children
(boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering
forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes,
hooking up - no thanks.
Honestly, my experience has been that those who
start dating in high school are much better off in the
long term than those who start later. It's helpful to
go through those early throes of relationships when you
can come home to your family and have a soft spot to land
and a little advice to hand, rather than an empty dorm
room or apartment. Just a really rough survey of those
I know finds that those who started dating in high school
under the watchful eyes of their parents did better long
term (and had more successful marriages) than those who
couldn't date in high school.

Best wishes,
Ericka
Gill Murray
2007-01-18 01:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
? Yes, I drop off and
Post by Cheryl Isaak
pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop
and go at the rink, but never the mall.
Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs
(especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a
courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one
night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked
some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children
(boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering
forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes,
hooking up - no thanks.
Cheryl, I had to stay out of this until the school dance bit!! I lived
this way back in the 50s.

My Mom had a bit of Hyacinth about her; Dad was my Pal. I wore glasses,
and until 14 had pigtails, braids whatever you want to call it. I was
also terribly shy.

Dating as the US knows it was not much of a thing. Kids didn't have
cars, and the last bus t left town before 10.30. There were some boys
and girls who dated, but they were the minority. Anyway I digress!

Mom and Dad encouraged me to go to the school dances, held in the gym,
with boys one side, and girls the other. I learned the word "wallflower"
the hard way LOL> About 15 minutes before the end of the dance my dad
would show up, and spend the time chatting with the Headmaster, and the
Senior Master.they were friends. He ould tell me that if anyone wanted
to walk me home, that would be fine. Now, what boy on God's green earth
would walk a girl home with her father chatting to the Senior school
staff?? My dad and I were pals, but the horror of those events live with
me 50-55 years later! Of course, dad did it because Mum felt it was right!

In fact my friends and I all swore we would be virgins until age
25.........and then the hell with it! How many did, who the hell knows?

Gillian
lucretia borgia
2007-01-18 03:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Gill Murray <***@nowhere.net>,in
rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by Cheryl Isaak
? Yes, I drop off and
Post by Cheryl Isaak
pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop
and go at the rink, but never the mall.
Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs
(especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a
courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one
night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked
some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children
(boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering
forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes,
hooking up - no thanks.
Cheryl, I had to stay out of this until the school dance bit!! I lived
this way back in the 50s.
My Mom had a bit of Hyacinth about her; Dad was my Pal. I wore glasses,
and until 14 had pigtails, braids whatever you want to call it. I was
also terribly shy.
Dating as the US knows it was not much of a thing. Kids didn't have
cars, and the last bus t left town before 10.30. There were some boys
and girls who dated, but they were the minority. Anyway I digress!
Mom and Dad encouraged me to go to the school dances, held in the gym,
with boys one side, and girls the other. I learned the word "wallflower"
the hard way LOL> About 15 minutes before the end of the dance my dad
would show up, and spend the time chatting with the Headmaster, and the
Senior Master.they were friends. He ould tell me that if anyone wanted
to walk me home, that would be fine. Now, what boy on God's green earth
would walk a girl home with her father chatting to the Senior school
staff?? My dad and I were pals, but the horror of those events live with
me 50-55 years later! Of course, dad did it because Mum felt it was right!
In fact my friends and I all swore we would be virgins until age
25.........and then the hell with it! How many did, who the hell knows?
Gillian
Virgins until age 25 ???? How boring would that be ????
Karen C - California
2007-01-18 03:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by lucretia borgia
Virgins until age 25 ???? How boring would that be ????
Oh, I don't know. I didn't quite make it to 25, but I came close. And
it wasn't boring at all. I found plenty of "good boys" to date, who
either were saving themselves for marriage or realized that becoming a
father while still in college was not a good idea.
--
Karen C - California
www.CFSfacts.org where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf

Finished 1/16/07 -- Classy Lady in Purple (JCS)

WIP: housewarming gifts, July birthstone, Flowers of
Hawaii (Jeanette Crews) for ME!!!
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel
LTR: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn,
Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe

Editor/Proofreader www.KarenMCampbell.com
Design page http://www.KarenMCampbell.com/designs.html
ellice
2007-01-18 05:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen C - California
Post by lucretia borgia
Virgins until age 25 ???? How boring would that be ????
Oh, I don't know. I didn't quite make it to 25, but I came close. And
it wasn't boring at all. I found plenty of "good boys" to date, who
either were saving themselves for marriage or realized that becoming a
father while still in college was not a good idea.
Boy, how far we stray from needlework. I don't know about boring, but I
sure know that I didn't make it that long. Of course, when I came home from
college 1 break, and went to the Gyn for a check-up - I was ignorant, had a
yeast infection without knowing what it was. And was a bit more experienced
than the then boyfriend (I was his first serious, er, physical,
relationship). The doc yelled at me in his office about STDs and slurring
the boyfriend - with my mother there. My mom flipped. I yelled back that
there was no way (since of course I knew that while the boyfriend had been a
virgin I hadn't been at the time we indulged). Then the nurse comes in and
says something to the doc. Then he turns red and says "sorry - you just
have a yeast infection" . In the meantime, my mom is hysterical 'cause it's
too late now to deny having "lost it" . Then the doc tells her he thinks
the smart thing would be to put me on birth control - to which my mom
responds " the smart thing would be abstinence" which of course they then
argue about reality. I was sooooo mad at the doctor. And FWIW didn't go on
bc because I didn't need to anyhow - but, man, some tales about Delfen foam
in the old days.....

OTOH, this had me thinking about a book I read in college. It's called "La
Celestina" - written in the 16th century. The class was Spanish literature
pre-1800 (maybe pre-1700) . The class was generally known as "la literatura
pornigrafica de Espana" (pornographic literature of Spain) . Anyhow - this
book, written by someone around the time of Cervantes - is a political
allegory. Celestina is essentially a madam - which means she is at the
center of the socio-political world in mid 16th century Spain. There are
some riotous conversations between the Duke & Prince, patrons of her
establishment - discussing having some particular girl as a virgin -
multiple times. In the narrative there is some explanation - Celestina is
explaining sewing goat or sheep bladder membrane into the girls so they can
be virgins multiple times.

Yup - it was quite the semester. And don't get me going about reading
Quixote in the original - some scene with Dulcinea making sausages got so
bawdy with my classful of South American guys that I actually walked out of
the class. The professor told me I could do independent study, and just
meet with him as needed or to take tests. Heck - each volume of Don Quixote
was an entire quarter. Not quite Man of La Mancha.

ellice
Brenda Lewis
2007-01-18 05:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by lucretia borgia
Post by Gill Murray
In fact my friends and I all swore we would be virgins until age
25.........and then the hell with it! How many did, who the hell knows?
Virgins until age 25 ???? How boring would that be ????
Pretty exciting if your age is 24 years and 364 days!
--
Brenda
Help Project Gutenberg--become a Distributed Proofreader
http://www.pgdp.net/
LizardGumbo
2007-01-18 20:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by lucretia borgia
Virgins until age 25 ???? How boring would that be ????
Mmm....34, anybody? (Oh! That would be me!)
Fred
2007-01-18 06:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Ya'll should change the subject line!!!
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At first glance I thought it read, "Re: dating (was Re: OT - Wet Dreams?"

Fred
http://www.stitchaway.com
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
Don't back stitch to email, just stitchit.
Post by Gill Murray
In fact my friends and I all swore we would be virgins until age
25.........and then the hell with it! How many did, who the hell knows?
Gillian
lucretia borgia
2007-01-18 12:06:12 UTC
Permalink
"Fred" <***@mts.net>,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote:
and entertained us with
Post by Fred
Ya'll should change the subject line!!!
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At first glance I thought it read, "Re: dating (was Re: OT - Wet Dreams?"
Now you're writing them Fred !!
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